Bringing a Healthcare Product to Market with Shehla Rooney PT 067

Don’t miss an episode! Subscribe on your favorite podcast directory above! Learn how Shehla Rooney went
from physical therapy to being CEO of GoKnee LLC and how she got into product development!

About Bringing a Healthcare Product to Market

Have you ever wondered what it takes to bring a physical product to market in the healthcare sector? Shehla’s journey began with a simple but profound observation: her knee replacement patients were struggling to regain their mobility despite following prescribed exercises. This sparked the idea of developing a specialized knee device and exercise program tailored to their needs. However, transitioning from a clinician to an entrepreneur was no small feat. Join us as we explore Shehla’s inspiring journey from being a dedicated physical therapist to becoming the CEO of GoKnee LLC. 

In this episode, Shehla shares the complexities of product development and marketing, from obtaining a utility patent to understanding the intricacies of targeting the right audience. You will learn about creating a prototype, navigating the patent process, and making strategic decisions about bringing the product to market while balancing entrepreneurship with family demands. Shella discusses the transformation from clinician to entrepreneur and the importance of value-based pricing over cost-plus pricing.

Shehla provides an eye-opening look into the daily challenges and experiences of being an entrepreneur. She discusses the unpredictable nature of each day, from managing finances and dealing with returns to navigating email automation issues and creating engaging LinkedIn posts. She emphasizes the necessity of constant learning and problem-solving and the misconception that simply building a business guarantees success. Shehla highlights the importance of proactive outreach and effective marketing strategies, particularly the power of word-of-mouth referrals.

Despite her personal and professional challenges, Shehla’s journey underscores the importance of seeking support, maintaining a resilient mindset, and staying true to one’s vision. Shella touches on the unique experiences of being a solopreneur, a woman and having an ethnic background in a predominantly male-dominated industry.  This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in healthcare entrepreneurship, product development, and the transformative power of innovation.

Resources

• GoKnee Website, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn
• Shehla’s Facebook, LinkedIn
• Klaviyo Email Automation

Related episodes

• Transform Clinical Skills into MedTech Success with Yera Patel DPT 059
• From Physical Therapist to Tech Entrepreneurship with Maggie Bergeron PT 046
• Venturing into Private Practice with no Business Background with Elizabeth Perry SLP 039
• How to overcome a patriarchal culture, scarcity mindset, and mom guilt with entrepreneur Monica Flores 021

Bio Shehla Rooney

Q&A with Shehla Rooney

What is your desired transformation(s) from this alternative journey?

The transformation has been huge. The shift from a clinician to a business owner has been truly remarkable. The amount of information that I have gained, and the amount of failures I have overcome, have been scary and exciting at the same time. The transformation wasn’t exactly desired because this transition happened by chance, but because it happened, I am so much better because of it.

What made you decide to become a Rehab Professional in the first place?

My Pakistani culture regards the medical field very highly, but I knew that I didn’t want to be a doctor. I was an athlete growing up and played a variety of sports, which exposed me to physical therapy. I knew that I wanted to help people and I loved the idea of rehabilitation.

What is your story behind the first sense of awareness that things weren’t quite right with your rehab career?

I loved my rehab career. My story on becoming a business owner was not due to searching for a passion or a drive or something different, because I already had those things in my professional life. My rehab career changed from clinician to entrepreneur simply because I was trying to solve a problem for a patient. The realization that I was part of something bigger and that I could have a much larger impact on patients, was the reason I pursued this uncertain and risky path.

What was the specific moment you realized your rehab career wasn’t for you? What was your decisive moment to transition to something else?

The reason I transferred to something else was because I created something that I knew could help thousands of people, maybe even millions of people all over the world. I could not ignore this kind of impact. If it hadn’t been for that one patient who was struggling after TKR surgery, I would still be a practicing PT in geriatrics.

What are some personal struggles you went through while finding and then transitioning to your business? How did you overcome them?

My transition from clinician to Entrepreneur was saturated with personal struggles, including trying to introduce a new knee product in January 2020 to the market just as a Pandemic was happening which limited all in-person marketing to surgeons/therapists; husband of 21 years (father of my 3 kids) asking for a divorce in July 2020; business partners (my fellow PTs) asking to exit the business in summer of 2021; husband officially moving out in fall of 2021; one child developing panic attacks and anxiety, one with worsening depression and the other one going from Dean’s List to failing all their classes and dropping out of college. There were many more, but those were the highlights. I believe that I was able to overcome these struggles because while all this was happening, I was doing a deep dive into counseling, therapy, hypnotherapy, EMDR, and digesting self-help material (audiobooks, podcasts). I learned so much about myself and realized that this business is what I am meant to do right now. My kids saw my passion, my resilience, my grit, my determination. They told me it was inspiring and that I needed to continue with this venture and see it through. At a time when everything was so bleak and dark for them, it was a beautiful thing to show them that their mother was still doing something great. That she was excelling, growing, and passionate. If it wasn’t for their support and encouragement, I don’t know that I would have continued. The ‘Mom guilt’ is a real thing and I just wanted to do what was best for them and if that meant giving up on a dream, I would have done it. Looking back, I am so glad that didn’t happen.

What was the first sign(s) of traction (and the emotion behind it) with your new career?

I knew it could work when that first patient made ROM gains using our product and was able to avoid a second procedure. However, I was naive to the product adoption cycle and thought that if you have a product that works and a population of patients that could benefit, then it was going to be a successful business. That is not true. There is a lot more than that that goes into getting a product to market. I would say the first sign of traction with GoKnee was when I was asked to speak internationally about GoKnee. I felt legit and less like an imposter. As a health professional, I wanted acceptance from the healthcare community. Prior to the speaking engagements, I was not very successful in getting support from surgeons and therapists. I had some mini-signs of traction, where PT clinics were purchasing GoKnees and local patients were buying it, but they weren’t always using it with their patients. They weren’t using it the way it was intended, which it is a HEP, not something that is used in the clinic. So, the real traction started when I began speaking about it and people started connecting with me all over the globe and reaching out to me. This led me to a realization that I had something real and revolutionary. This allowed me to shift from thinking, “I think I have something here” to “I have created something that can impact people all over the world, so let’s do this!”

What are the practical (non-obvious) skills that make you a great fit for your work now?

I have always been a life-long learner and had a growth mindset. I just shifted this from learning about clinical skills and diagnoses to everything business-related. I have always sought out constructive criticism and looked for ways to better myself and that has served me well in business, as there are many people who will criticize your product, your pricing, your marketing, and your business. Other practical skills that have served me well in this venture are resiliency, grit, determination, perseverance, and being a hard worker. I think the most important non-obvious skill that I have is understanding the psychology behind the patient. I have always wanted to understand my patients and treat them with compassion and empathy and I believe this has helped me tremendously in my business. It helped me figure out who my ideal customer is, what their pain points are, what their goals are, and what they fear and worry about…. these are key in business.

What do you love most about your new reality?

The initial transition from working in a clinical setting with a team of health professionals to working from home by myself was really difficult. However, now it is what I love most. I love the flexibility of my day and schedule. I love learning new things all the time that I never thought I would find interesting, like marketing, sales, med tech, and finances. I love connecting with like-minded people from different industries, different countries, different backgrounds and different professional goals. I think what I love most about my new reality is knowing that I am making a global impact on patients with chronic knee pain and knee replacement recovery.

What did you learn in your rehab career that you apply to your new career?

I learned so many things from my rehab career that I apply to my current work. The importance of learning and growing and adding to your knowledge base and skills. Listening to your patients so that you can really understand what is going on with them on a deeper level than just the one medical diagnosis they were referred to you for. My rehab career gave me a lot of exposure to various other healthcare professionals and realizing they are all different, that they are motivated for different reasons. This helps me to communicate with surgeons, clinic owners, doctors, health insurance providers, difficult family members, and non-compliant patients, all of which are relevant to my current business. The most important thing I learned in my rehab career is that not all health professionals are created equal. I learned that health professionals are slow to change and adopt new ways.

What are the roots of your new career? What was your seed of hindsight to your new career?

My culture and upbringing promote career selection based on earning potential, status, and respect. Being a ‘business owner’ in the traditional sense was not something that was promoted in my home, because it was considered risky and unknown. However, my parents planted the seed of curiosity, learning, growth, hard work and constantly striving to be better than those around you (keep in mind my parents were immigrants with a mindset that we must earn our right to be in this country).

What is obvious to you now that you struggled to see in the moment of working in the rehab profession?

In hindsight, I was a hamster on a wheel. I was putting out fires every day and fixing problems on a superficial level. I wasn’t making change that could impact on a larger scale. I wasn’t teaching people how to fish, so they could feed themselves for a lifetime, but instead was giving them a fish so they could eat now.

What made you decide to pursue your current career? Why this specific one?

As they say ‘Necessity is the Mother of Invention’. One patient had a problem and he asked for a solution we created one and it worked. Seeing the potential benefit to patients on a much larger basis was the reason to pursue my current venture. I have always wanted to help people and this venture was going to have the potential to impact millions of people all over the world and that was too enticing to not pursue.

What was the biggest frustration or challenge in making your transition from bootstrapping your business up to doing it full-time?

The biggest frustration/challenge is the uncertainty. Not knowing how many sales you will incur this week. Not knowing if your digital marketing strategies are working. Not knowing if you are spending the right amount of money on the right things in order to reach your target audience who has a problem for which you have a solution. I continue to have struggles and frustration with financing my business on my own. I have business debt that was accumulated during COVID when sales were non-existent to slim, so that is a weight on my shoulders as I personally don’t like debt.

What is the biggest problem you see in the rehab space or rehab private practice space?

The biggest problem I see is the lack of health professionals embracing change. Most are not interested in learning something new, even if it means it could benefit the patient. They are happy with the results they are currently getting. Most therapists are not asking themselves, “Is there a better way?”, “Can I get the patient better in less than the prescribed visits?”. Therapists working in private practice are chained by productivity standards, reimbursement challenges, documentation requirements, staffing issues… all of these things inevitably put the patient last. If you think that is not true, then think about the patient who wants to ask lots of questions or whose subjective answers are long… treating therapists are worried about their next patient who is waiting, they rush their current treatment to stay on time, they are not practicing active listening to the patient, they are using passive modalities more and hands-on techniques less. The biggest problem I see is the lack of intentionality inpatient treatments. Every patient is different, therefore every treatment should look different even if the diagnoses are the same.

How would you describe the journey or mission you are on? What’s the destination you are working towards?

GoKnee is going to revolutionize the knee replacement recovery space. It is going to highlight the deficits in the current traditional HEP prescription. GoKnee is going to empower the patient who has been waiting years to have this elective procedure and wants to have the best recovery possible. GoKnee is going to impact millions of people all over the world. GoKnee is going to be taught in PT schools and therapists are going to wonder why these types of exercises were not prescribed to knee replacement patients before GoKnee’s creation. GoKnee is going to cause other health professionals to think outside the box and to create even something better because the patient deserves the fastest and least painful recovery possible. My end destination is to partner with a large ortho company to get GoKnee in the hands of people that I could never have even imagined possible!

Transcript of Bringing a Healthcare Product to Market

Intro 00:01

Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast. Are you a rehab professional ready to transition to an alternative career? Hear inspiring stories from others just like you and learn the best ways to bridge your career gap. This podcast has you covered. Now here’s your host, doctor of physical therapy and podcaster, Tanner Welsh. 

Tanner Welsch 00:21

Welcome back to another Rehab Rebels episode. Our guest today is Shehla, a PT who is the CEO of Goni LLC. She was born in Liverpool, England, home of the Beatles. She immigrated to Canada when she was a baby and grew up in Prince Edward Island. She went to PT school at I hope I’m pronouncing this right Dollhouse University in Halifax, nova Scotia, but has practiced predominantly in the US. She is a solopreneur of GoKnee LLC. Her business partners exited in 2021. 

00:57

GoKnee is an advanced home exercise program for the total knee replacement patient and includes a patented knee device and a customized exercise program that is being used across the US and Canada, Kenya and Australia. Her professional PT career has been primarily focused on geriatrics, ranging from long-term care, skilled nursing facilities and home health. Her first job out of PT school was in the US asa traveling PT. It was the best way for her to make money to be off her student loans, as well as being able to travel around the US. She fell in love with Middle Tennessee, where she has been for the past 18 years. Welcome to the show, Shehla. 

Shehla Rooney 01:39

Thank you for having me, Tanner. 

Tanner Welsch 01:41

It’s a pleasure. I am not going to waste any time and I’m going to jump right into. How did your entrepreneurial journey begin? 

Shehla Rooney 01:49

Well, I was going to say it’s an unconventional way, but the more I dig into how businesses start, it’s usually necessity is the mother of invention. So I had a patient five years ago that was struggling from knee replacement and back then I thought he shouldn’t have been meaning. He was younger, he was healthier, he was motivated, he was compliant, he was your great knee replacement patient, was really active, we were doing everything that we knew to do and his range of motion wasn’t coming back. Let’s fast forward. He went to the surgeon for a follow-up appointment. Surgeons don’t like your range. We’ll probably have to schedule an MUA the manipulation under anesthesia. Patient comes back and says you’ve got to be kidding me. I’m doing everything you’re telling me to. I’m very compliant, I don’t want another procedure. 

02:35

And a colleague of mine, a fellow PT, very creative. She went to a local hardware store. She built something, brought it back. We figured out how we could use this contraption to get the guy to do some more aggressive exercises on his own at home, knowing he would do them. And, lo and behold, it worked. And I will tell you that for people that are listening, that truly have the entrepreneurial bug, they’re probably like oh my God, that’s fantastic, but we shelved it. We put it back in the little equipment closet with all the walkers and the platform walkers and all that, and we just put it away. Solved a problem for a patient. And then a couple of months later we had another lady and anyways, now you fast forward and you realize you have something that can help a larger population. It was working and that’s when the business idea started. 

Tanner Welsch 03:19

For sure. Awesome, that’s brilliant. Totally makes sense. There’s a problem, you guys come up with something and solve it. Can you give us a 50,000 foot view as to the start of the business, when it started with this patient, to where you are now? And then I want to talk about some struggles that you went through and how you overcame them. 

Shehla Rooney 03:36

We were really excited. Again, I never wanted to be a business owner. I loved being a PT, you know. So I know a lot of people that listen to your show were always missing something or looking for something. Well, that wasn’t me. But the thing is, once I saw that there was a possibility of helping thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people all over the world with this product, that’s exciting to me. I, by nature, want to help people, so this was something that I was very passionate about. 

04:00

The only issue was that we were very naive. So three physical therapists started this company and we all had the exact same skillset, which is we were really good clinicians and that’s it. None of us had business knowledge, none of us had finance knowledge, none of us had marketing knowledge, all the things needed. What happened was we just thought we have a product, oh, there’s a million people next year that are going to have this surgery. Let’s figure out what we want to charge for this and we’re going to be zillionaires. I mean, you know, I know that sounds foolish. I mean we didn’t say multiply by a million, but we thought by about 100,000, maybe 10% of them will want to do this. We were so naive, I mean, and so green.

04:45

I mean, as I say this out loud to you, I apologize to your listeners who have been on a business journey for a long time, but now fast forward five years. I didn’t understand the product adoption cycle. I didn’t understand what it took to get a product to market. I didn’t understand so many things. But the consistency is I saw the value, I saw the potential, I wanted to help and I was going to figure it out, and that’s where I’m at today. I mean, my business partners exited. They clearly didn’t see the vision that I saw and they weren’t as vested and I mean COVID was really hard for everybody, so no fault to theirs. I don’t blame anybody for anything, but I’m so thankful that the idea was created by my colleague and that she allowed me to participate early on, because it’s a constant joy every day. 

Tanner Welsch 05:23

When did you guys start? When did this business officially start? 

Shehla Rooney 05:27

2018. 

Tanner Welsch 05:28

Okay, all right, and then you guys actually launched the product in 2020, right Right around COVID. 

Shehla Rooney 05:34

Yeah, yeah, and that’s because I mean, patenting is a process, research is a process. So we started the business. We created a company that had the intellectual property, like we were the business owners of the intellectual property. But yeah, I mean, we were still had our clinician hat on really firmly on our head. We had no idea that we could sell this to the consumer without the research you know, because we were healthcare providers. So everything has to be clinically proven, everything needs to be evidence-based. We put it on pause about selling it and generating any revenue related to it, even people that wanted to buy it. So we officially launched. January 2020 is when I quit my day job because the research had come out at the end of 2019. It was amazing. Better meaning, these doctorate students were able to clinically document why it was working so well. We knew it was, but I’d forgotten some of my knowledge from back in school. So they explained the physiology behind why it was just so effective and I was like, okay, let’s go, it’s go time. 

Tanner Welsch 06:30

I think you’re the first guest we’ve had on the podcast that actually has a product, a physical product, and so I am curious what the stages of this are and can you talk us through that, once you get the actual device locked in the design, then patent, then bring to market. But can you fill us in on all that? 

Shehla Rooney 06:50

Gosh, you know you’d think I should be the expert on this. I feel like people have 50 patents, are the expert. But I will tell you my personal journey. We created something apparently it’s called a prototype. You find a patent attorney. You know they have to do a whole dig deep to make sure there’s not something else that’s already like this. That’s a nightmare in itself. 

07:07

Our patent just came through for the US, meaning it’s patent pending for like years. I don’t know if that’s so that we keep paying money for it, I don’t know, but anyways, it’s a four or five year process for the patent to come through. It’s costly, it’s timely, it’s a lot of back and forth with engineers and patent attorneys, but during that time you can tweak the product, its appearance. But we did what’s called a utility patent, meaning it’s how the device is used that is patented. So someone could change the appearance of it, but they can’t repeat the functionality of it, because it’s a tool that allows the individual to do things like joint mobilizations and muscle energy techniques. And so we wanted to patent not the look of it. We knew the look of it was less to be desired and if anyone goes to the website, yes, I’m gonna tell you my baby is ugly but my baby is super smart. 

07:54

But yeah, so that’s how you come up with a prototype. You start in the patenting process. You figure out what it is that’s unique about your product, make sure there’s nothing else that’s out there coming down the pipeline of the patent process. But since it came through, we’ve tried to change the appearance of it, not the functionality, with minimal success. So really, what you see today is what the original device looked like. I mean, we added a few colors and patent stickers and made in the USA stuff like that, but it’s pretty true to the initial prototype, which is unheard of. Apparently is what I’ve learned. 

Tanner Welsch 08:29

Most people’s has a journey and it looks very different what they’re selling today than what it was, but not for us. Thinking out loud, I would think, mass producing this and then bringing it to market. Can you talk about those? 

Shehla Rooney 08:35

Yes, and let me tell you, we did what you said, which is actually a mistake. You don’t mass produce until you know you have sales. 

08:42

Okay, yeah yeah, yeah, see, we thought very similar there, tanner. We thought you know what we need to produce this, because the minute this goes live, I mean you know it’s going to be a product drop and it’s going to go crazy like it does on TikTok. But no, that’s not the case. Just because you have a product and a customer base that should want it doesn’t mean they’re going to understand the value and they’re going to want to separate their money for this product, especially when it’s new, especially when surgeons and therapists don’t know about it Remember knee replacements. It’s an older demographic. These guys want the endorsement of their surgeon or their health professional. I mean, I got a 20 year old son who was a TikTok guy told me this is going to work, it’s going to work and I’m going to do it right. That’s not how the older generation works. 

09:23

So, again, there was a lot of lack of knowledge on our part on what it takes to cause behavior change for an individual to purchase something with their own cash that would benefit their recovery. And so, yes, we built the inventory, and that’s saying of if you build it, they will come is not true for Shellarooni and Kony. Ok, it was for Kevin Costner, but it was not for us. But yeah, so we built it. They did dot com and we had a ton of inventory for a very long time. I mean, keep in mind also I’m going to give myself a little bit of grace we also didn’t anticipate COVID, ok that’s fair. 

Tanner Welsch 09:57

And then the next following step would be what’s it like bringing a physical product to market? I mean it, it sounds great you being able to get onto an influencer on TikTok. Have them market your stuff that’s in the health field. But tell us your journey. How did you guys go about it? 

Shehla Rooney 10:12

You know these are such great questions, tanner. I don’t even know that. These are things that I’ve stopped to think about in a sequential order. I think they were all happening all at the same time. 

10:24

If you have a product, now you’re asking yourself who is going to pay for it? How is it going to get paid for? So you have to ask yourself are you going to go through the insurance process? Could we get this covered by Medicare or the large insurances? Are we going to go private pay? And I’ll be honest, our decision to go for a cash-based private pay was simply because we could not afford the time and the cost associated with trying to get it covered by insurance. Get it covered by insurance. Just know that you don’t guarantee. 

10:48

Once an insurance or Medicare decides to cover it, they get to dictate what the value of that product is. So if they decide it’s similar to this other neat contraption and the CPT code for that is $18.79, then all ofa sudden your product could be devalued and it’s done. I mean, once Medicare determines what the cost value is, every other insurance is going to follow along, and I’m going to say, at the time when we looked at it, to even sit in front of a board of Medicare reviewers for new products. I mean, it was a six month wait list and probably a $50,000, like almost I’m going to call like an entry ticket, but at the time we didn’t have the time, we didn’t have the money and we were being told by some experts in the field you don’t know what they’re going to value it at at which point. 

11:29

You’re done so with combination of COVID, combination of limited resources and funding, realizing that you know what we need to not sell to 1 million people. We need to sell to the people that will spend money on their health and find those people that spend money on high quality sneakers, a good gym membership, so people who are doing product businesses. Those are the choices covered by insurance. Private pay it’s nice when things are covered by insurance because then doctors jump on board, surgeons will endorse products that are covered by insurance. The negative to cash pay is health professional endorsements are much less. We have biases as therapists. We don’t want patients to have to pay money for something and then surgeons don’t like to even talk to you. If you have a cash-based product, it lacks validity because it doesn’t have the insurance backing. 

Tanner Welsch 12:15

Can I ask you how you overcame that barrier? How did you market towards that specific audience who’s willing to spend money on their health to have better recovery time and better recovery in general? 

Shehla Rooney 12:27

Another good question. I wish you were around during this journey to ask these questions. It’s marketing. We went through probably five marketing agencies until we found the one that asked us the right questions and, like I said, our naivety was at the time. There was 700,000 people in the US having knee replacement surgery every year and our number was we just want to get to 5% of those, but we didn’t know how and we didn’t know why. But our thought was we were making financial projections based on if we could just get to 5% of the market. In hindsight I say this out loud to you now how ridiculous for us to think we were just going to randomly find them or they were going to find us. So the answer to your question is meticulous, intentional marketing, finding who your ideal customer is, knowing everything about them, like picturing one human being. 

13:12

You know Miss Jones is 67 years old. You know what leisure activities is she doing? Where is she going to eat? What kind of activities is she doing? How old are her children? How old are her grandchildren? What was her job? What was her education level? How much did she make during her lifetime? 

13:27

Dig deep, because the person who’s on Medicaid, who’s had an amputated foot or is on food stamps. They’re never going to be my client, even though, as a therapist, I want them to be. The therapy hat is I want to put it in the hands of every single person that can benefit from it. My business hat is I want to put it in the hands of people who understand the value of it. And so we shifted our marketing to target the individuals, the things that they want to hear. Do you want to get back on the pickleball court? Are you wanting to return to traveling? Are you the reason your spouse can’t do the things that you want to do is because of your knee pain. So we changed that, and it was hard for me when the marketing guy that finally got it said to me you’re not going after large masses, you’re going after a very niche individual who understands, who will deviate from their surgeon’s recommendation, who will purchase a product that their therapist says they’ve never heard of is very different, right. 

Tanner Welsch 14:21

Yeah, that’s wild, but it’s so true. 

Shehla Rooney 14:24

So true. So it was hard for me. It was hard and even to this day. In the last two days I probably get four people reach out on my website who said I’m on a fixed income. I only make this much a month. My husband died three months ago and I have to do this recovery on my own. Can you give me one for free? I mean, again, my therapy hat’s like yes, let me figure out how to do that. But I did that for the first three years and my business partners had to exit. We were in financial ruin. I mean, I cannot do that anymore. So now my therapy hat’s on really firm and I have to say I wish I could help you out. Why don’t you call me? We’ll have a free consultation about your knee replacement recovery and I can give you some suggestions on what to do. I can give you a discount. I can offer you free shipping. I’ll give you something. But I can’t just give away. It’s a business. 

Tanner Welsch 15:09

Exactly. 

Shehla Rooney 15:10

So it’s been hard, it’s been really hard. 

Tanner Welsch 15:12

That’s something I found too, and you pointed this out right from the start the rehab professionals. In general, we are not educated or have the experience, especially right out of school, with business related things. There’s so many things, marketing, sales, and then there is I don’t know if it’s a cultural bias or this feeling of should I really charge for this? Can I charge this much? Is that okay? I don’t know what you’d call that. What was that like for you? What was your experience with all? 

Shehla Rooney 15:41

that that’s a great point and I think anybody who’s listening, who’s thinking about a product business. You keep thinking about cost plus price, meaning the cost of the materials to build my product, which, again, if you go to the website, the materials are simplest. You keep thinking that because you know how much it costs to buy the materials, you should add a little bit of a surcharge and that should be your price point. That’s what I thought. I thought it should only cost this much, very small amount. But what your product is is not a cost plus value. It’s value-based pricing, meaning you’re reducing a time that person has spent in pain, You’re getting them back to work quicker, You’re allowing them to travel faster, You’re allowing them to learn to play pickleball they are depressed and devastated from years of knee pain and you’re giving them the hope of getting back to doing the things that they want to do. So a faster recovery, less pain, more hope that’s value, not PVC and pool noodle. I mean, I probably went through at least six different pricing models before I got one that I understood and my gut felt good about, and then I met that marketing team that I told you helped me connect all the dots and they said the same thing. This is a goldmine. You have something that reduces, not just a pain point, real pain. 

16:52

And in marketing you’re taught that if it’s too low you eliminate a whole bunch of people because they think there’s no value. If it’s too high, you have the people that can’t afford it. But again, if you’re in the middle you get nobody. You need to pick what you want. I said what do you think I should do? And after talking to me for months, we need to do a high ticket item and it took a long time for me to swallow that. But he created a website around high ticket item. He created branding and messaging high ticket item. So you know I’m no longer selling a knee device, I’m selling a knee recovery program. Our exercise program is from my 26 years of experience. It’s all the research I’ve read, it’s all the evidence I’ve gathered, it’s all the anecdotal, it’s all the patients I’ve treated. The device, yes, was built at a hardware store, but the program that comes with it, the safety, that’s what they’re buying, and so value-based versus cost plus pricing is what you have to consider in a product business. 

Tanner Welsch 17:44

I love that. I think it’s interesting too, some things that maybe we don’t consider, especially not being in the business field. Is you’re talking about? How do you price the product and some additional things. I’m thinking about is obviously your time employees time but also budgets for marketing or like things that we may not actually understand, that are baked into a lot of the brands that we purchase, that we like, so they can have money to get out there and get the marketing out there too. 

Shehla Rooney 18:09

We almost had three years of no revenue. Oh, and my therapy hat was on firmly, so I was giving a hundred percent discounts to anybody who asked, because I just wanted to get it in the hands of any patient to use it. So if you had said I can’t afford it, I would have been like it’s okay, Tanner, you use it, you give me a testimonial and we’re going to call it. Even that can’t work for very long. So to me you’re right. 

18:32

We were in so much debt and on a personal level I don’t try to live in debt and so it was really hard. I didn’t know what good business debt was or bad business debt, and so we were learning all that. But you’re exactly right, I did not have an undergraduate in business before I got into PT school. I did not take any business classes during my PT journey, so we struggled on all fronts, and for those of you out there that are looking to start a product business, I urge you to not partner with three like-minded PTs. We only offered one unique strength and we all three had it. If I could go back and have a crystal ball, I would have been. I need someone that has financial funding, business loan knowledge. I need someone who has marketing sales knowledge. So we were a company of only one strong suit, and that does not equal an easy road 100%. 

Tanner Welsch 19:22

I couldn’t have said it any better you need marketing, you need finance, you need all that, and if somebody already has that experience, great. 

Shehla Rooney 19:28

And let’s also for your audience listening. This product can be used, like you said in the introduction, in Kenya, in Australia. So I don’t need a marketing company that knows how to market a local boutique. I need a company who knows how to market an e-commerce, cash-based, international business. And guess what? I live in a small town in Middle Tennessee. How naive of me to think that every marketing agency would know how to do that. I mean, just like in physical therapy, someone comes to me with a pelvic floor dysfunction. It was not my strong suit, right? If you gave me a pediatric, a child with something, it wasn’t my strong suit. I was a geriatric specialist. So to me, how naive of me to not know what to ask the marketing company. And shame on the marketing company for not making sure they understood what I needed so they could give me what it needed to go both ways. 

Tanner Welsch 20:20

And we’re talking about a lot of crazy stuff. And that’s my next follow up question what is a personal struggle that you went through, that you can think of, that you’re willing to share along this journey, and how did you get through that? 

Shehla Rooney 20:31

Goodness, I mean, my brain is having a multitude of things come to the surface. How about I’ll do a 30-second round robin of all the personal things and you decide which one you think would be advantageous to discuss? Obviously, I mentioned that 2020, I quit my day job and COVID happens financial ruin. Right there In the middle of COVID, my husband asks for a divorce after 25 years and three children. Covid was hard on him in a different way. He was a nursing home administrator, so very difficult. And then, at the end of 2020, my business partners are whoa. We’re now three years in and we’re not making any money, so we don’t know if we can continue this in the middle of 2021. They exit the two of them. So now not only am I in debt, but I have to figure out how to buy the two of them out Again, with possibly my marriage ending and no financial money. 

21:19

I got children that are missing their baseball season and missing graduation. I had two kids that were graduated 2020 and 2021 from high school. So that’s happening. And then I’m dealing with the children, dealing with depression and anxiety because of what’s happening in our personal lives. So again, I felt there was a lot of reasons to not continue. Let me put it that way. I just felt there was a lot of reasons that they were saying nobody wants to buy your product. Doctors and surgeons and therapists aren’t endorsing it. Marketing is not working. But it was the wrong marketing. You know you’ve got business partners that don’t see value in it. They want to exit. You know I have a spouse that’s saying you know, our family life is not working. I mean, I don’t know, there are some good ones right there. 

Tanner Welsch 21:59

I love your honesty and sharing your journey with us. Thank you for that. Appreciate you. 

Shehla Rooney 22:07

Yes, I would like to say for the audience listening, the good thing. Right now 2024, my husband and I have reunited. We’re back together. My family’s united, still dealing with some mental health issues with my children, but everything’s good. My business partners again live literally two miles from my home, so we have a good relationship. They don’t want to be on board, but they’re seeing the traction that Goni’s getting and they’re realizing they jumped ship when it was difficult. 

22:28

On a positive note, yeah, there was a lot of struggle and strife, but I think that what I don’t give myself enough credit for was I have a vision, I can see what Goni is going to be and, yes, there’s lots of things that are speed bumps along the way. You get to have a choice on how you handle every fail, every challenge, every struggle, the things that were important to me I fought for. Also, part of Goni’s revenue issues was me working, making a concerted effort to work on my marriage. You can’t grow a business and work all the time, even though I wanted to, when you’re trying to fix something like that. So again, it was part of my lack of revenue and it was a struggle for me. That imposter syndrome of everything should be about the business. 

23:12

But that’s not true, because you have to ask yourself your why right? Why am I doing this? It’s for the financial freedom, the flexibility to travel with my family, to grow old with my spouse. So these people that were who cares? If they buy your product and they want to hang clothes on it, you just sell, sell, sell. It didn’t feel right and luckily I had a few key people that were like you, do what’s right for Shell, aruni and everything else will fall into place. And if you have to press pause, it’s not going to be to the doom of your company, and I’m thankful for the people that told me that, because there’s a lot of people speaking in your ear. You got to work 14 hour days and give up everything in life in order to succeed and it’s not true. That’s their bias. 

Tanner Welsch 23:49

That was my obvious question to ask you was why did you keep going? Why didn’t you quit? Is what I was thinking. 

Shehla Rooney 23:55

Yeah, no, I thought about it all the time. I mean, you know and I thought about it because I was I’m not going to be able to financially support this anymore Because my husband was the one working the real job and had the health insurance so I could do this dream thing how am I going to co-parent and raise three kids Owning a business that you’re passionate about is? I think about it all the time. I go to bed thinking about it, I wake up thinking about it. I love working on the weekends about it because I love it, and so part of me was I think I’m going to have to go back to a nine to five job, weekends off, so I can be there for my kids. But I’m so thankful that my children are, you know, now they’re 22, 20 and 14. 

24:26

But at the time I remember saying to them I think Goni may not work out, my business partners have left, dad and I are working on this, and I just remember my kids saying are you kidding me? They knew how excited I was. They’d heard about every win. I mean, we’re big toppers in my family, and so I just remember, especially the two older ones, saying you can’t not do it, and then my son. Well, it’s going to be your legacy. It’s the reason I’m going to be able to retire young. He was joking, but he’s going to reap the benefits of this successful journey. But yeah, I will say that if I didn’t have the support of my kids saying, we’re good, we love seeing you be passionate about something, because if they had said, yeah, we need you, I would have made the self-sacrifice that moms make and I would have done the right thing to get the regular paycheck with the regular hours and I would have put myself back in that box and I would have been okay. But I’m thankful that that didn’t happen. 

Tanner Welsch 25:13

You need to write a book about this. 

Shehla Rooney 25:17

You have no idea so many things, but you know what I also encourage business owners. There are opportunities presented every day. Sometimes we’re not open to seeing them. Despite all the strife I was going through, I also was doing a personal journey and you’ve talked about this which I applaud you for being open and vulnerable all the time. I was doing counseling. I was doing even hypnotherapy and meditation. I was doing things that, let’s say, five years ago I would have called fluff. I was a very black and white human being. I did a lot of reading and growing. I’m very thankful for what we went through because it caused a deep dive into a personal journey of growth and because of that, I was seeing opportunities everywhere Instead of seeing reasons to not pursue. You can either wallow and be like everything is saying don’t do this, or it’s saying work harder, find the right target audience. My marketing ramped up big time when I felt the urgency of not having my financial support of my husband. 

Tanner Welsch 26:11

Let’s talk about mindset. How did aspects of your mindset shift from when you started this business journey till today, and talk about the story and transition there. 

Shehla Rooney 26:22

I would have said I had a growth mindset before. I’ve always wanted to learn and grow, but I always was selective in what I chose to learn and grow in, whereas since I’ve started the business, those topics are not selected by me. You have to understand QuickBooks, or you need to learn about Stripe, or you need to figure out how to do email automation. These are not topics that I find interesting or enjoyable, but what I do find interesting and enjoyable is the outcome, meaning when I automate something, oh my goodness, the joy that it brings me to see it work and save me time and that’s what everybody becomes a business owner is. Eventually, you’re not trading time for money, right. Where I can wake up today I woke up, two sales showed up in my website, I mean on my email inbox right, you’re just generating income without actually doing a service. That’s the dream, right. So I think that that’s the biggest mind shift is I’m learning and growing in things I never would have intentionally chose to seek out. It’s the transition from a clinician’s mindset to an entrepreneur’s mindset, which is I have a problem. Before I solved it for one patient. Now I’m solving it for a global company. 

27:31

I have noticed that the ability for my brain to quickly go through and filter through and sieve through maybe five things I’m considering all of a sudden I’m getting to the answer quicker, or I’m falling less often, or I’m failing quicker and getting up quicker, meaning the failure still happened, but before it was. A surgeon said your baby is ugly, or I’ll never endorse a product that looks like that and I’d wallow. Now I’m like that’s a no from them. Let’s move on and find the one who understands what I’m trying to do. Everybody is not your customer, but the ones that are your customer will speak it from the rooftop. They’ll do a Google review without asking. They’ll do a referral without any incentives. That’s the win. 

Tanner Welsch 28:10

That’s how you know you’ve targeted for sure your target, your primary audience member. They recognize and understand the value that you’re giving them, so much so that it affected their life so much they’re willing to give you a review. So I loved how you were talking about filling out the avatar form with all the background like demographics and psychographics of your target audience, and that’s what they talk about in online marketing and stuff too. 

Shehla Rooney 28:33

And Tanner, I don’t want to make sure that whoever’s listening, make sure that that is a key takeaway. So if you’re having a lot of negative interactions with your customers, it’s because you are not targeting the right customer. And I’ll tell you, as a business owner, because there’s so much uncertainty with finances and generating revenue, we don’t want to say no to that clientele or that funnel of individuals, because we don’t want to lose that money. But I am here to say you are actually slowing your revenue growth by going after the people that are sucking your time and your joy. 

Tanner Welsch 29:05

Yeah, that’s awesome. You’re unique for the show in what you’re offering and what you’re doing, and so I’m curious what, being a solopreneur of a business selling a product, being a woman having an ethnic background Can you talk to us about that? What you’ve experienced, maybe some cultural things going on, what do you got for us? 

Shehla Rooney 29:26

Let’s talk about the positives, the positives of and again, if anybody’s listening to this, I look Pakistani because my parents were Pakistani. So I got the darker skin and I’ll tell you the bias associated with brown color skin color is people assume I’m a doctor. So I won’t lie that. There are times that I have been on a Zoom call with a doctor who assumed I was also a doctor and he gave me his time of day because of his own bias and I didn’t correct him. So for the record, I know that’s funny, but you got to use what your mama gave you, right. So there’s an assumption that I’m intelligent and I’ll take that. 

30:00

But as for the female thing, my go-knee business is targeting surgeons and physical therapy clinic owners, which for the most part that I have seen have been middle to later age white men From a female bias standpoint. As a PT, I didn’t feel it, because I think it’s common knowledge that there’s a lot of women in PT. But when I became a business owner and I had a product and I was pitching it to these men, I will tell you I have lost track of how many people said you really need to make that device look better. I just got all the advice from the men because clearly I didn’t know anything about business. Because I’m a female and even for those listening, I had to change the cadence of my voice when I spoke to them, I used my hands to talk. I had to tone that down because it’s very put-offing. That was probably my bias from the female standpoint and my cultural. One more thing about my cultural thing is engineers, lawyers and doctors those are your three top three job choices that when you’re growing up in the household you’re like these are your three. What do you want to do?

31:02

When I wanted to become a physical therapist, my dad was like I guess that’s okay, you’re a female, you’re in the health world. But fast forward to now. I’m a business owner, global impact, I speak internationally and my dad is I don’t want to say embarrassed and I don’t think he’ll ever listen to Rehab Rebels. But he thinks I’m unemployed, there’s no set paycheck, I don’t have a brick and mortar store because I’m in e-commerce. I just ship them out. I just ship them out. 

31:27

So when people ask him, what does his daughter do? You can just hear him oh, she’s a physical therapist, she specializes in geriatrics, she’s got this. He never says I’m a business owner, which is so funny because my friends’ parents would be like she owns her own business and she’s killed. No, not in my family, it’s a little, let’s keep it on the down low that she’s an entrepreneur. His entrepreneur means no money to my dad. I mean, he supports me in that do what you got to do. But he also thinks, since my husband’s financially, you know has a full-time job, he’s well, at least he’s taking care of the family while Shehla does whatever she’s doing. But to pat my dad on the back, he’s also the one that initiated the growth mindset from the time. I mean, since I was a toddler, I was taught to always excel, be competitive, do the best you can. To this day, I reap the rewards of that 100%. 

Tanner Welsch 32:13

Yeah, what is a question you wished you were asked more? 

Shehla Rooney 32:17

From a business standpoint, I wish there were more people that objected about my business than were supportive early on. I think that when people say they’re going to start a business, most people are like, yeah, you should do it, you’re going to love it. And they give you the fluffy answer, yeah, you’re going to be in control of your own schedule. And I think that that’s not the reason you go into business, because you work harder than you’ve ever worked. Yes, it feels good and whatever Someone just recently said. A really successful entrepreneur said to me that they have voluntarily worked below the poverty line for years, meaning to grow their business. They had to take such a low salary right. It doesn’t get advertised that when you’re in business, you’re going to make a whole lot less and work a whole lot more for a very long time. Before that changes, before it pivots and goes in the other direction, I wish people had said why it wouldn’t have worked, meaning when we came up with the product and we said what it was going to do. I mean, obviously the attorneys that are forming our corporation are like, yeah, yeah, you should do it. The bankers are like, yeah, yeah, you know, sounds like a good plan. The business mentors, the local free resources that are supposed to mentor. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, you should do it. Marketing companies yeah, yeah, yeah, we’re going to find your customers. 

33:25

I just wish that there had been more naysayers. Let’s tell you why this is not going to work. You do know you’re not going to see money for five years. You do know that you’re going to be in the hole. Not that that’s a negative. 

33:36

I think that today I would have been able to receive and overcome all those objections, instead of living the objections and thinking there were reasons why my business was going to fail. And it’s just like therapy If someone says my shoulders are really bad, I can’t use anything that involves my arms in order to recover, then we just automatically regroup and we come up with something different. Or if I know a patient has dementia, I just automatically change my plan of care, knowing what her deficits are. But I feel like, as a business owner, you don’t know what your deficits are. No one’s telling you what your deficits are. They all want you to continue on this path without giving you the I’m going to call it the bird’s eye view of all the reasons why this might not work. That’s not a negative view. That’s a realistic view. And then you get to start your business with a realistic view. 

Tanner Welsch 34:21

I 100% agree. There’s so many things. There are these great aspects of being your own business owner and getting things going and making your own schedule and calling the shots and like seeing what patients you want to see when you want to see them, all that stuff. But a lot of people don’t understand that. It really seems pretty simple on the surface and, okay, I’ll take a course or I’ll learn or read a book and figure it out. I’m not saying you won’t learn and gain from that, but there’s just so much more to make it all work and so much of the time, even Rehab Rebels. I’m investing in this to keep it going. 

34:55

You know, recently just got a sponsor, a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe this is all going to pay for itself and work out, but a lot of people put in years of their own time into something that isn’t necessarily generating any sort of money and it’s a risk. It may work out, it may not, and if it does not work out well, you could always go back to traditional therapy. And there’s two other aspects of doing something that ideally you’re passionate about and you can create a business about out of if you want. It’s the networking and the connections and the relationships you’ll make and the skills that you’ve learned now from actually going through all that, even if it doesn’t turn out the way that you thought it was going to 100% agreed. 

Shehla Rooney 35:40

Like I said, the journey that I’ve been on, I’ve probably gotten at least four to five degrees, honorary degrees myself in sales and marketing and finance, and, you know, entrepreneurship, business, whatever. These are things that I’m going to take with me forever in whatever I do, whether it’s growing Goni, whether it’s selling Goni, whether it’s doing a different business venture. 

Tanner Welsch 36:06

But yeah, these are skill sets I would never, never, never have gotten, otherwise. So what do? 

Shehla Rooney 36:08

you love about your current the reality that you’re in this solopreneur of Goni? What do you love about your new reality? I love talking to customers. I love when a surgeon or an innovative PT reaches out to me on LinkedIn and says hey, I saw your product online. It seems pretty cool. Can we chat? Yes, because the first two years I was reaching out to everybody and nobody wanted to chat right, nobody wanted to know about it. So it’s nice to be on the receiving end of people finding the product, wanting to learn more. Again, I just started getting word of mouth referrals. That’s been a huge win for me. I mean congratulations to you on the sponsorship. I get what it takes for someone to want to invest in your business and what you’re doing to help your financial journey. So, yeah, I’ve just had a lot of wins. 

36:46

And so what does my day look like? God, every day it’s something different. I mean, every day it’s something. I’m going to look at QuickBooks and I’m going to look at the finances and try to move money around to try to cover all the bills that I have, or it’s I’m manufacturing and I’m boxing and I’m printing labels. I mean to be honest with you just yesterday my headache was. I had a return. I’m not going to tell you that. You know it was a surgeon who said return, that you don’t need it, which is so unfortunate because the patient found it, bought it on their own and shared it with the surgeon because they were so happy, and then the surgeon said no, so again, change bias. But that was oh no. They got an automated email from my Klaviyo account that said the device was shipped when I created the return label. What a stupid headache. Today I’m going to figure out why did they get the wrong email sent to them and I’ll figure it out. 

37:31

But every day is different. I’m constantly listening to podcasts, which is how I found you. I’m constantly talking to people I would never have had contact with. I’m reading books that would never have been in my top 100. Like I said, it’s filling my thirst for problem solving, which, once you become an entrepreneur, all of a sudden you see all the problems. When I was a PT, I just saw patients’ issues, but now I see it everywhere, in everything. Every day you could be on a customer call for an hour. You could be interviewing with someone on a podcast. You could be trying to figure out Klaviyo email automation. You could be trying to create a LinkedIn post that’s captivating and exciting. It’s scary, but something changes at some point and it becomes exciting. 

Tanner Welsch 38:12

Wonderful. I love how you said if you build it, they will come is completely, completely false. I’m right there with you and you know, just because you have a website or a podcast doesn’t mean that people are going to be knocking at your door to like set up affiliations and sponsorships. I was actually reading an intake form from another guest that’s going to be on the show and she worded it Basically you eat what you kill. She’s a copywriter, an online marketer, and so part of how she has to earn money, especially since she’s her business is just starting, is reaching out on her own to contact people and drum up her own business. People aren’t coming to her. You have to get around that barrier, even the mental aspect out of it, to be able to actually have a successful business. 

Shehla Rooney 38:57

Well, and if you think about it, when we work for another PT employer, we show up and we’re given a caseload. We didn’t have to go find those eight to 10 people and we don’t have to exchange their money. We already got paid the minute we showed up for work. So it’s a completely different ballgame. If I don’t reach out, if I don’t connect, if I don’t do the Google ad or I don’t create a YouTube video, I don’t create a lead bag, got all these things that are so new to me as a business owner If I don’t do those things, then they will not come. And again, it’s always. You’re just constantly pivoting and learning, and pivoting and learning like, oh, why did the last five people that bought they already had their surgery? Well, I must not be targeting them right, because I want them to buy my product before they have surgery. So if they’re buying it after surgery, then I’m missing something in my marketing or my content that I’m creating. 

39:39

It’s just so interesting to me that there is and I know some people listening might be like well, it sounds like nothing’s ever good enough or you’re just never going to reach that pinnacle, and I think that’s the people who think like that right now it’s the still they’re on their mind shifter, because to me I see that as the challenge of oh that one didn’t work, which means again, Einstein right. He figured out 999 ways that a light bulb does not work, right. So to me that’s what I’m doing. I found four marketing agencies that did not work until I found the one that did. It’s actually quite to me, it’s quite fulfilling. I feel like all entrepreneurs have that zest for the thirst for learning something and overcoming something, and I think that that’s fun. 

Tanner Welsch 40:18

For sure. I guess here, just closing, I will say what I’ve noticed with talking to people that are interested in doing entrepreneurial stuff or business stuff the easiest point of entry for the rehab field is doing like a concierge rehab business, where it’s not necessarily brick and mortar. They go out to patients home and treat them, and the best marketing that I’ve heard everybody say over and over again you mentioned it yourself that you just got is word of mouth. You don’t have to pay for it, you just deliver on your services and your overall care, and then the rest talks for itself. It’s like we talked about earlier getting that exact target niche, audience or patient, whatever they are going to vouch for you if you’re delivering on everything that they need. Okay, I’ll get off my little soapbox, and is there anything else that you would like to add before we hop off the call? 

Shehla Rooney 41:09

Just all the uncertainty is normal, All the fails are normal. There is not one business, whether it’s Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, or like he took 20 some years to become what he is. I think we have this. You see a successful business in your town and you just don’t know that. The journey probably started seven years before you saw what you saw, and I think that it takes longer than you do and I’m not saying that to stop people. I’m saying it to make sure you financially prepare for it. You know, and mentally prepare for it. So, if that’s a key thing, I think imposter syndrome is really key. 

41:40

With health professionals, we think we don’t have any business being in business, and I think that you need to get over that and I had a hard time faking it till I make it. I always use the word we, especially when my business partners exited because I sounded so less significant. I do this so I’d always say we. But you know it doesn’t matter and who cares right? Who cares how big your thing is? And when people ask, how is your business doing, Don’t feel like it’s only based on finances. I just think that you need to define what success looks for you and truck it. Everybody is on the struggle bus. We all want to help each other. We’re really not in silos. I don’t want to sit there and not help other people Ask for help, ask for guidance. But it’s a long road, but it is definitely worth it 100%. 

Tanner Welsch 42:20

We’re going to put all of your info, contact info in the show notes and I would love, for any of the rehab you know, private practice owners who are interested and just want to know more. Please reach out to Shehla Rooney and hit her up. I’m all about supporting us in the community and this group of rehab professionals, so let’s do it and make it happen. 

Shehla Rooney 42:44

Yes, and if I could just say, I’ve learned that if you don’t ask, you don’t get. So here’s my quick ask Anybody listening who is a private practice owner or does concierge or private pay or has a business that they sell products again, reach out to me. Like I said, either you can help your knee replacement patients or chronic knee patients. You could create a revenue stream of bringing in new clients. You could use it as a marketing opportunity for surgeons who are like hey, we’re trying to find someone who has a niche. I can help with all those things, generate revenue and word of mouth and increase clientele. I can help 100% Go team. 

Tanner Welsch 43:14

Yeah, Thanks Shehla for coming on, Really appreciate you. 

Outro 43:17

Thank you for listening to the Rehab Rebels podcast. If this podcast was useful, make sure to hit that subscribe button and leave a review. For more information about transitioning to alternative careers, head to rehabrebelsorg or follow us on Instagram at Rehab Rebels podcast. We’ll see you next time.

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