Overcoming Burnout and Balancing Parenthood with Valerie Levesque DPT 058

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About Overcoming Burnout and Balancing Parenthood

The world of physical therapy (PT) is evolving, and professionals like Valerie are leading the charge by breaking away from traditional clinic settings to establish successful concierge physical therapy practices. In the latest podcast episode, Valerie shares her compelling journey, offering valuable insights into the intersections of career fulfillment, overcoming burnout, family life, and entrepreneurial ambition in the healthcare field.

If you’re feeling burnout and disillusioned, our guest, Valerie Levesque, faced a common problem in her career: a mountain of debt, and a clear-cut income ceiling. The traditional rehab model in competitive environments like Seattle left her nowhere else to turn except to contemplate alternative paths outside the traditional rehab model. Embarking on this non-traditional path, Valerie confronted the high costs of childcare and the pressures of balancing parenthood with professional aspirations and previous burnout feelings. Her solution, a concierge physical therapy business, provided the flexibility she needed to be a present parent while maintaining her professional identity.

In this episode, we talk about the strategies Valerie is implementing, such as prioritizing networking with like-minded professionals to expand her professional community and client base, having a well-crafted brand story to attract the right clientele, and using user-friendly and small-scale tools. All of this has been key to, not only streamlined her operations but also ensured that she could provide personalized, one-on-one care that many traditional settings lack, and avoid burnout as a PT.

Valerie’s venture into concierge PT is a testament to the power of taking a calculated risk and the fulfillment that comes from pursuing a path aligned with one’s values and lifestyle. For those feeling burnout or dissatisfied with the traditional healthcare model, Valerie’s story offers inspiration and practical guidance. Her success demonstrates that with the right mindset and tools, a more sustainable and rewarding approach to PT and work-life balance is within reach.

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Transcript of Overcoming Burnout and Balancing Parenthood

Intro 00:01

Welcome to the Rehab Rebels podcast. Are you a rehab professional ready to transition to an alternative career? Hear inspiring stories from others just like you and learn the best ways to bridge your career gap. This podcast has you covered. Now here’s your host, doctor of physical therapy and podcaster, Tanner Welsh. 

Tanner Welsch 00:21

Hello Rehab Rebels, welcome back to another episode. Hello Rehab Rebels, welcome back to another episode. A preview for this episode is if you’re feeling burned out and disillusioned. Our guest, a physical therapist, faced a common problem in her career a mountain of debt and a clear-cut income ceiling. The traditional rehab model in competitive environments like Seattle left her nowhere else to turn except contemplating alternative paths outside the traditional rehab model. She’s in the process of transitioning to a cash-based model for her physical therapy practice, emphasizing the value her services provide her patients. She is strategically growing her business, maintaining intentional small-scale operations while prioritizing her role as a mom. Welcome to the show, Valerie. 

Valerie Levesque 01:05

Thank you, I’m really excited to be here, Tanner. 

Tanner Welsch 01:12

Yeah, I’m so glad we got to connect and bring you on. You’re in the middle of the transition and learning a lot, and that’s great. That’s why I wanted to get you on the show to talk more about your journey and some of the pain points and struggles that you’re having and or have gone through and overcome. So what is your story behind the first sense of awareness that you know things weren’t quite right within your traditional rehab career and experience? 

Valerie Levesque 01:32

Yeah, I think it became very real to me when I was trying to plan my return to the clinic after having our second child. I had to leave it open-ended and then I kept pushing it back and pushing it back, and pushing it back and it became very clear that for several factors, but specifically the economic factors at play, it just didn’t make sense for me to commit to returning to the clinic, even part-time, because the costs of child care are really high in an urban setting like Seattle. And so putting both of my kids in daycare full-time and then working maybe part-time, it just didn’t pencil out and I kept racking my brain where’s the in-between? You know the difference between identifying as a practicing physical therapist and then being solely stay-at-home mom, which are both amazing. But I wanted to find a way for me to maintain my license, maintain my practice, but also be there for my family when you know they need it. So being able to see patients in their home on a flexible basis lined up and made sense to me. 

Tanner Welsch 02:48

Yeah, like a alternative path that made sense to fit where you are in your life and the lifestyle that you’re wanting to have. Right, was there like a specific moment that you had or that you remember that was OK? Yeah, this traditional way is not going to work and this other starting my own practice is what I’m going to do because of this particular moment or event that happened. 

Valerie Levesque 03:09

It’s hard to pinpoint a specific moment, but even as I was working part time and pregnant with my second, there was just this looming sense of dread. Oh my God, what in the world are we going to do when this baby shows up? How are we going to get through this little period of time, this stretch of time where they’re not in public school and you have to pay for private daycare? I knew it was there, but I tried to push it off and I’ll deal with it later. We’ll figure it out and, of course, it doesn’t just figure itself out. You have to be intentional. As my second kid got older and older, I couldn’t make a commitment, it just didn’t make sense. Yeah, so I don’t know that there was an exact moment, but there is certainly a build like a crescendo, just drawing a line in the sand. I cannot do that. 

Tanner Welsch 03:57

For sure, and it sounds like there’s two things at play here the financial aspect of the care for your children and also the aspect of possibly the time and not being able to spend as much time with them because they’re in care too right. So how do you solve both of those things in one go? And that’s where you ended up with the concierge PT practice. 

Valerie Levesque 04:18

And it’s not perfect, right? Even this week my kids there were snow days. Right. Even this week, my kids there were snow days. There were sick days. I had to shuffle people around. It’s not an absolute perfect model, but it works and I feel confident now that I’m not digging my family into a deeper and deeper hole, because that’s a really heavy thing to carry around. Oh, it’s because of me and my career choices that we’re not able to make it right now. I think that it’s also just having that self-confidence that I’m still contributing to my profession, I’m still contributing to the growth of my family and, yes, it’s going to be a little touch and go while kids are getting cold and whatever, but it’s going to be okay. 

Tanner Welsch 05:03

And so we everybody’s on the same page and we understand where you’re at right now You’re taking care of the kids at home and then on the side, you’re building out your concierge PT practice, correct. 

Valerie Levesque 05:14

Yeah, and as I’m seeing patients, they do go to a daycare Now that I am very grateful, for. We ended up moving from Seattle to Boise, Idaho, and the child care costs are half they’re half as much as they were in Seattle and so we feel we have the ability to put them in daycare for a little bit and so that I can pursue initial vows getting more patient and very slowly work my way up with my case load. 

Tanner Welsch 05:44

Absolutely. Let’s talk about that On average per week. How many patients would you say that you see, and how many days a week are you seeing patients? 

Valerie Levesque 05:54

I think that I open it up to five days a week right off the bat just because I’m trying to gather new patients. After a couple of weeks of that because I’m driving right to house to house I had to be like, okay, that was a crazy week, I need to concentrate it. And so Mondays, right now, are my day, where I’m not going out and seeing patients. I’m doing other types of tasks. I would say that right now I’m seeing about five patient hours a week and I’m spending probably twice as much networking. I’m spending a lot of my hours when the kids are at daycare, that I’m just coffee meetings, group meetings, going to all these different types of business related networking events, and it takes a lot of time. My short-term goal right now is 16 hours a week. If I could treat 16 patients a week, my income would roughly be the same as working full-time in a clinic. 

Tanner Welsch 06:54

No kidding. 

Valerie Levesque 06:55

When you look at the math in those terms, it’s a pretty easy decision. 

Tanner Welsch 07:00

Absolutely, and that was one of my follow-up questions was where do you find most of your success with referrals and getting these new patients coming in and what’s been some things that have really had a good return on investment of your time to get those patients coming to you? 

Valerie Levesque 07:26

Working with family friends. You know people that I already had within my network who needed services and so treated my husband’s, cousin’s husband for a back injury and working my way out from there. 

07:37

The group that I’ve spent the most time with and I feel has so far been of the most value, is a networking group called BNI, business Network International, and I know that there’s chapters all over the place. It was a little bit of a learning curve for me to get the hang of it, just because business networking is not something that I have an expert in. You’re put on the spot and they say, ok, tell us who you are, what you do and what a good referral would be for you. In 40 seconds you have to stand up in the crowd and give a commercial, and so I just threw myself into it and I’ve already paid off my annual dues from referrals that I’ve gotten and I really anticipate to grow from there. I feel the closer that I become with the health and wellness subgroup within the chapter that I’m going to, the more referrals and the more back and forth we’ll be able to take care of people. 

Tanner Welsch 08:30

That’s awesome. I’ve heard that also from another individual that was starting their own concierge or like private rehab practice and they really liked it the BNI. 

Valerie Levesque 08:41

It’s a great entry point for me because I’m new to town, I don’t know anyone. The people I interact with on a daily basis are daycare people that watch my kid, and so to broaden my community network, this has been great. Oh, now I know somebody who does X, y and Z, all the trades, all the professional services. We had somebody help us with a will. You’re just making so many professional connections that you would never be served to you on a platter in any other setting. 

Tanner Welsch 09:12

Absolutely. For those that are wanting to do something similar to what you’re doing, you know, start their own rehab practice. What would you say are some fundamental things that you learned that need to be in place before you really start going out and actually getting the patients rolling in. 

Valerie Levesque 09:29

A good place to see this play out is my website. When I was first putting these ideas to pen to paper, if you will I grew all of the things I was thinking about on my website. This is who I am. This is what I’ve done. I have a dog, and it was all these personal details. But the more that I’m learning and I’m working through the story, branding right and how you tell your story of your brand is so important, and so being really narrow and specific with your story is how you can capture audiences, and so I’ve been tightening up my messaging, narrowing my messaging, getting rid of some of the extraneous things. Nobody cares that I have a 12-year-old rescue dog and being more specific about here’s the problem you have. I know all about your problem and this is how I’m going to solve it for you. I have the skills to solve your problem. 

Tanner Welsch 10:30

I was looking in my book, stack back here for story branding the book. Yeah, I got it around here somewhere. 

Valerie Levesque 10:37

I had a family friend be like you need to read this and it was huge. You can spend tons of money on a marketing professional that does exactly what they tell you, step by step, to do in this book. 

Tanner Welsch 10:51

Yeah, I completely agree. It’s super useful. We talked about the marketing aspect. I imagine there’s another EMR system or billing, or maybe that’s all in one thing. What have you found has been most you know, the easiest for you to use and what’s worked? 

Valerie Levesque 11:05

So because I have such a small scale at the moment, I’ve not been as concerned about the EMR side of things just because it’s fee for service, but what I have the G Suite templates and prefabricated documents from Unsubscribed Rehab that I learned about from another guest on your podcast. But the thing that makes it really convenient from like a bookkeeping perspective is having a Clover, a purchase of sales little device so that when I’m in someone’s home I just pull out this little tiny device. It syncs up with my phone and with my business bank account and I swipe their card and it’s done. Until I gain a little bit more caseload, I’m intending to provide super bills. 

11:51

I haven’t gotten to that point right now because the folks that I’m training at the moment are super happy to pay out of pocket, and this is another thing that I’m learning is that the insurance model is really failing a lot of people. I anticipate, going into this, that the people that I was going to be marketing to and who would be my potential new clients would be folks who have a lot of discretionary income. But I think that what has actually happened is the folks who are pulling into the side of saying I really need your help. Their family works hard for their insurance. It just isn’t helping them. They’ve either maxed out their benefit and it’s only September, or they have crazy high deductibles and they’re effectively paying a pocket to go see a PT in a clinic anyways. 

Tanner Welsch 12:39

Right. It’s a lose-lose for everybody. Honestly and I’ve also heard about working in the traditional rehab model insurances also dictate what we can treat as okay. Yeah, this is medically necessary and this over here isn’t medically necessary. So if the patient actually wants that that’s not medically necessary, it doesn’t get reimbursed, you know, and so your manual muscle testing is a four out of five, and so bye, you’re fine. Yeah. 

Valerie Levesque 13:07

I mean, it’s all. It all is on a spectrum. Some people get tougher scenarios than others, but just having the ability to follow through with my exact plan of care is so liberating and so empowering and makes me fall in love with being a physical therapist all over again, because you can get bogged down and feel like, oh man, am I really making a difference? Are these people really getting better when I see them walking out the door after eight visits? But now you have no red tape, no problems, no barriers and you can really see it through until you both agree that, yeah, I’m doing what I want to be doing, so that’s really awesome. 

Tanner Welsch 13:49

I’m doing what I want to be doing, so that’s really awesome. Yeah, you have the autonomy to treat how you want to as a practitioner. The traditional model also often has the OTs, the PTs, doing a lot of the evals, reassessments and discharges, but they actually don’t really. Usually the case is they rarely actually treat the patients and I think you know to your point you’re able to do all of it, I mean start to finish, including the treatments, and I think that adds, you know, that rapport, that connection and all that with the patient, because you’re actually there and then seeing the progress and modifying the progress or what’s to do next. 

Valerie Levesque 14:25

And I’ve been very, very fortunate to have worked in clinics that have one-on-one care, and so I’m not even used to working with assistants or aides or rehab techs or whatever, and so the idea of somebody taking my patient and then handing them to somebody else, I’m just not okay with that. 

14:46

I want to hold on to them and take care of them and see it all the way through, and so, yeah, it is hugely important to have that continuity and care, to have the ability to coordinate some of their services, because a lot of these folks don’t know where to start or who to talk to. If you ask them, who have you talked to about this injury before you talk to me about it, a lot of times they’ll say nobody. And so if you can be the person to say you know, let’s get a second opinion, because this doesn’t sound right. That is what physical therapists are supposed to do, and when that happens, the patient is going to gain so much trust. They’re going to know that you’re not just there to spike their credit card. You are there to really make them feel better, and if that means going to see a different provider, then I’m so happy that you found that. 

Tanner Welsch 15:42

Yeah, you’re allowed to look at the patient from a holistic point of view and then have these other networking, partnerships and relationships to be able to refer to the appropriate professional to touch on all those holistic approaches to treat a patient. 

Valerie Levesque 15:57

And I think that in my previous roles I’ve yearned for those relationships with other professionals. I just really want to have a massage therapist that I trust implicitly that when I send a patient to them they’re going to take a really good care of them and vice versa. And I think that the interactions that I’ve had here in Boise have really surprised me with how open and generous everybody is with their patients, but also just with their time. I think that the health and wellness, allied health, if you will field, they’re all super interconnected. Here. There’s less of that competitive. This is your turf, that is my turf. If you see a chiropractor, I can’t treat you. If you’re doing cryo-signal therapy, no way, there’s none of that here. 

Tanner Welsch 16:45

It sounds like you maybe experienced a different setting to where you were running into those barriers, or it was super competitive. 

Valerie Levesque 16:53

It was always an unspoken thing, right, but I had to go out of my way. You had to try, and sometimes people are just so busy. You try to coordinate things and, at the end of the day, my caseload is overflowing. I’ve got wait lists. Why do I need you? 

Tanner Welsch 17:10

Where was this at or what was going on in your life at this time? 

Valerie Levesque 17:13

When I graduated PT school, I started in a residency program in Seattle. I did a residency and a fellowship program and then I transitioned to a different clinic and my feeling was that people were just busy. It wasn’t that they didn’t want those relationships. Everybody was super open minded. But I think that you had four e-bals tomorrow you weren’t focusing on let me go to dinner with this chiropractor so that I can get to know them, and I think it’s also at the start of this new venture, and so that networking piece is what I’m focusing on, and so I’m just relishing it, I’m loving it. I think that it’s so inspiring, so I’m just having a lot of benefits. Yeah, along with it. 

Tanner Welsch 17:56

For sure. Yeah, I believe it was back when you were in Seattle, because you’re in Idaho now, back when you were in Seattle. This is more what you experienced, right? People just feel they didn’t have time to do these networking things. Yeah, time to do these networking things. 

Valerie Levesque 18:08

Yeah, because you were seeing 40 patients a week. Your brain is overloaded with just what you have on your plate at the moment. You’re scrambling to finish your notes, you’re scrambling to see the next patient. You’re chugging water as you walk down out to the lobby to get your next person, and I think that that’s a natural experience as a new therapist. Right Is that you get thrown in there and, for better or worse, ends up with that burnout experience. Knowing how to set boundaries, protect your time, be efficient All of those things are so important because burnout is so real. 

18:52

In the middle of the year that I did this fellowship training where it was including weekend courses on top of your full-time job I tried to quit halfway through and I sent a letter of resignation: “I can’t do this anymore. Thank you for everything, bye”. And then I got an email from one of my mentors Thank you for everything, bye. And then I got an email from one of my mentors Come here, sit down in my office, let’s talk about this, and she talks me off the ledge of. You can do this, you just need to finish this through, and sometimes that’s what you need to. You just need somebody to cheer you on, but the burnout is real and it takes a toll on you in ways that you don’t realize, as it’s happening. 

Tanner Welsch 19:30

That’s actually a topic that I talk about in the miniseries, the Transition Journey miniseries. The first episode is episode 40, and that’s a topic that’s definitely discussed and I think it’s important because all of us have experienced it in the health field. What would you say was the first signs of traction? Or when did you know that this could actually work and be prosperous and profitable? 

Valerie Levesque 19:52

It was recently, in the last couple of weeks, because until now this has been a fantasy of mine. But putting it all into action and seeing how receptive and even excited other providers are to have you in their network, that’s when I started to get excited and be like, oh, this is going to happen. The way that you can connect with some of these other providers and have an understanding that we’re not doing protocols for our patients. Everything is individualized. It’s so specific to the person, to the condition, and having another referral source. See that in you and reflect that back. Just the last couple of weeks is really when I started to feel that, oh, this is going to happen. 

Tanner Welsch 20:38

That’s awesome, congratulations. I’m excited for you because I think a big part of it is actually making the jump and putting things in place to actually do it. That would be a huge barrier, I imagine, for anybody that was wanting to do this, and so to clarify the ability to actually see things look like this is there’s traction, it’s going to be profitable, just keep building it out. If I understand this right, it’s not like you knew this necessarily before you made the jump. You had to actually do it, right. 

Valerie Levesque 21:08

Yeah, a leap of faith is an understatement. It very much felt like, if I’m ever going to do it, now is the time and I just have to throw everything I’ve got at it. We’ve made some really tough decisions to prioritize this. You know for ourselves when we sold our house in Seattle. We’re renting a house right now so that we have the flexibility to do all the things I mentioned before daycare, startup costs. But the concierge model is beautiful in a sense that it doesn’t require a ton of startup costs, sole ownership to make the decisions of what are you going to spend your money on, what are you going to invest in in order to add value to your, to your patients? How are you going to set yourself up to be on that concierge level, white glove service sort of care? 

Tanner Welsch 22:04

What are some practical maybe non-obvious skills that make you a great fit for this concierge PT practice that you’re going? 

Valerie Levesque 22:13

Some of the skills that are maybe not something that I learned in school just this is how I am trait are more relationship building skill. Back when I was in high school I was student body president. I was the president of the physical therapy club in college. Having that position of control is something that I really thrive in. I really like having the ability to make decisions for myself and that’s something that I’ve known about myself for a long time. 

22:44

I think that in PT school, when I had one affiliation in a hospital setting and you just feel like you’re a little cog on a wheel and there’s millions of hierarchies above you, that was super, super unsettling for me and so I just know that that’s not. That’s not for me. I guess, to specifically the relationship building and just making people feel heard, I think that a lot of times patients tell their story to providers, whoever they might be, and they don’t feel heard. So whether that means that it was a time constraint where somebody had to interrupt them oh no, no, no, you have five more minutes or they just they say their story but there’s not really enough of a plan behind it to address their primary concerns. That is something I try really hard to give the extra time to listen and really understand. Where is this coming from? What other factors might be at play? If you take the time to understand them, they’re going to buy into your plan of care. 

Tanner Welsch 23:48

Sure. I also see another thing, possibly with the burnout topic. You know, if there’s a PTOT speech path that’s super burnout and just doesn’t have the energy time’s definitely a thing too, but doesn’t have the energy to really be present and listen then it’s just again a lose-lose situation. 

Valerie Levesque 24:05

And COVID is a perfect example, you know, for all of us who worked through COVID, of complete empathy fatigue. You are sitting there and you’re listening not just to their PT problems but all these other problems, giving yourself the space to not fall into that pattern of another terrible, sad sob story. Here we go again. You just come at it from a different perspective when you have more in your own tank. 

Tanner Welsch 24:33

Exactly, yeah, I completely agree. What would you say that you love most about your new reality? 

Valerie Levesque 24:38

My new reality. I mean, it’s just the sense that I’m still providing for my family and I think that not having that was it was something I struggled with. I love my babies and I loved the time that I got to spend at home with them. It was a little over a year, but the idea that I wasn’t making a meaningful input to our spreadsheet, our little equation, you know, I just didn’t feel good. It kind of messed like my self-confidence and my self-worth and I really tie a lot of my identity, my self-worth, to my profession and I think that that’s just a natural thing that therapists of all kinds do, because it’s so intertwined with who you are. Finding a way to carve out this side route of still maintaining that identity and that self-worth, that this is how I add value to our family is really meaningful to me. 

Tanner Welsch 25:40

Absolutely what is obvious to you now that maybe you struggled with to see in the past working in the traditional rehab profession, you know being where you are now and then comparing it, looking in the past and I would say, framing around you know working in the traditional rehab and then also to where you are now, which is, you know, the concierge business space. 

Valerie Levesque 26:01

Yeah, something that I didn’t think about much before, that I think about a lot now these days, is how to make your plan of care and your home exercise program accessible and something that they will actually follow through with. In the traditional model, they’ll have some clinics with really super specific equipment fancy pulleys, you name it and the patient is only experiencing that when they’re in the clinic. So if it’s one or two times a week, that’s great, but what it comes down to is what are they doing at home every single day? How are they embedding these new movement patterns, whatever it is into their daily rituals? How do you get somebody to do something as consistently as they brush their teeth, so that it’s like this is ingrained in them? This is just what I do. 

26:55

I take care of my spine, I take care of my shoulder, whatever I started, giving smaller and smaller whole exercise programs, less and less complicated home exercise programs, things that involve less and less props, home exercise programs, things that involve less and less props and then being able to see the patient in their environment and give them the most specific instructions and cues for how they can successfully reproduce those exercises in their own space translates into more compliance, better performance, better outcomes, because they’re going to be able to actually achieve the thing that you want them to be achieving. I’m excited to be able to do that now, where I can say okay, put your door at this exact angle and, when you’re kicking your leg back, kick it in this exact direction, towards your kitchen cabinet. 

Tanner Welsch 27:46

Right. 

Valerie Levesque 27:47

And giving those parameters to certain people means all the difference. 

Tanner Welsch 27:52

Yeah, there’s some things that I haven’t thought about myself, so that’s really insightful. Thanks for sharing. Getting towards the end here of the interview, is there anything else that you’d like to share with other rehab professionals who are looking for alternative careers and or maybe considering opening up their own rehab practice or concierge practice? 

Valerie Levesque 28:10

I think that it’s obviously doable. Right, when you are asking yourself, could I do this? The answer is yes, it could be done. But what I would encourage maybe new grads or new physical therapists that are grinding it out at the clinic right now to try and develop patterns of care that sets you apart. How can I stay above the fray and do like that little bit above and beyond piece and then really gain that trust with your patient? 

28:46

Simple things like following up with them with an email hey, how did the visit go last Thursday? How are you feeling? That can mean a lot to somebody If you’re like I know I don’t see you for five more days, but I just want to touch base and make sure those exercises are treating you okay. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to reach out. So, even though you’re probably head is spinning with your crazy key float and you’re this close to burning out, just if you can take a step back, think of them you know not as a need as a human and try to just take that into consideration as you are following up with their care. 

Tanner Welsch 29:21

Absolutely. I want to go ahead and summarize from this episode is that the transition to a concierge physical therapy model can offer significant advantages, addressing both the needs of patients and the personal professional aspirations of the practitioner. 

29:38

The realization that patients, you know, with insurance plans facing limitations or high deductibles they are willing to pay out of pocket for this personalized and high quality care really underscores the validity of this alternative approach. How to achieve this? Some of the solutions to achieving this that we’ve talked about are embracing an entrepreneurial mindset, evaluating personal professional priorities, actually considering alternative paths, including this concierge PT avenue, and then networking effectively to connect with patients seeking personalized care and also the personal and professional networks that are involved with the holistic care of these patients. And so, by being a rehab owner, the ability to call the shots, be creative and have control over the treatment environment enhances job satisfaction, highlighting the importance of autonomy and an entrepreneurial mindset and reshaping the traditional rehab model and, ultimately, your career and the lifestyle you want to have. Yeah, I’m really grateful and thankful that you came on, Valerie, to share your experience. Thank you so much. 

Valerie Levesque 30:41

Thank you. I’m happy that people are talking about this stuff and that it’s not just this secret, unspoken thing that people sit around daydreaming about. 

Tanner Welsch 30:50

Same. It is possible. People are doing it. You can do it too, you know. Take care. 

Outro 30:55

Thank you for listening to the Rehab Rebels podcast. If this podcast was useful, make sure to hit that subscribe button and leave a review. For more information about transitioning to alternative careers, head to rehabrebels.org or follow us on Instagram at Rehab Rebels podcast. We’ll see you next time. 

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